Here’s a straightforward question in ballistics:
What velocity do you need to launch a 350 pound object over a 12.5 foot barrier that is 33 feet away?
The answer, thanks to Raza Syed, a physicist at Northeastern University in Boston, and a pal is: 26.7 miles per hour at an angle of about 55 degrees.
Now let’s make a few substitutions. Replace 350 pound object with a female Siberian Tiger called Tatiana. And for 12.5 foot barrier 33 feet away substitute the dimensions of the tiger enclosure at San Francisco zoo.
Is this kind of speed possible for a tiger? Apparently yes. Syed says tigers can reach speeds of 35 miles per hour with a run up of only a few feet so this enclosure was clearly no barrier to Tatiana.
After her leap for freedom, Tatiana killed 17-year old Carlos Souza and was shot dead after mauling two other victims.
Ref: arxiv.org/abs/0801.4407: Tiger Tales: A Critical Examination of the Tiger’s Enclosure at the San Francisco Zoo
Comments
104 responses to “Feline ballistics”
It wasn’t a leap for freedom, it was a leap for revenge.
Too bad she didn’t kill the other two. Her death would have been more meaningful.
Or both.
Sure, Tigers can reach 35mph horizontally, but how good are they converting that forward velocity into a leap at the required angle?
Probably not good enough to clear the enclosure, but probably good enough to get high enough up the fence that they can clawhold and scramble the rest of the way.
BUT she’d only need 26.7 !
and an object travelling 35mpg is still travelling that speed (assumming ideal collision with the angle-changing object; ground meeting paws)..
My comment refers to:
By Scott Manley on Feb 1, 2008 | Reply
Sure, Tigers can reach 35mph horizontally, but how good are they converting that forward velocity into a leap at the required angle?
Probably not good enough to clear the enclosure, but probably good enough to get high enough up the fence that they can clawhold and scramble the rest of the way.
I wish to God the tiger had killed the other two. Shooting the tiger was absolutely inexcusable. They should shoot the other two humans.
Why was the tiger killed after this?
the tiger was killed after this because that is what Americans do to animals who present a danger to humans.
You know… rather than just taking it back to the wild. Makes sense right?
Man, he must’ve pissed her off and forgot to do his math at school.
Don’t be so ignorant. The police had to kill the tiger because it was an obvious threat and the zoo could not contain it. This tiger was a captive all it life and likely readmission to the wild is not possible or practical. So, if you are threatened by force, you have to protect those around you.
Any European police force and zoo would have done the same, so get off your high horse.
Zoo’s are wrong… if you want to study animals go to their natural habitat… oh wait we have destroyed all the nature so we can be god’s bacteria… eat all the resources and die out.
humans are a little small minded
It’s sad that the tiger was put down, yes, but seriously people, it’s a little sick to wish that more people had died.
Oh, and you couldn’t release it into the wild, it’s been in captivity too long. You’d be sentencing it to starve to death, which has to be less humane than shooting it.
Still, a cool example of how physics is more useful than most people think!
@tkjtkj:
I’d like to see you run full-speed and convert well over half of that velocity from horizontal to a 55 degree incline. I doubt you could do run that speed up a hill at all, let alone convert that speed instantaneously, without a ramp.
This “paper” does the physics well enough, but fails to consider such critical assumptions.
Well you can’t blame the tiger… just a pity they felt they had to kill it instead of tranquilizing it.
Yeah, we humans are “God’s Bacteria.” I really love reading those poems that cows write, though. They’re amazing. Oh wait…
Seriously, humans are flawed, sure– we’re all in need of redemption because of our sin, but we’re also created in the image of God. This dichotomy can be seen everywhere you look in human culture. For every Hitler, there’s a Duke Ellington. One’s genius does not excuse the other’s megalomania, nor does the evil of the one denigrate the beauty of the other’s work.
But let’s not do the “we’re the worst animals on the planet” thing. That’s just too simplistic, and a really perverse view of our species. We humans can do such beautiful things.
Zoos play an important role in preventing the *destruction* of animals. Education is the only way to reach people that are small minded or will never have a chance to experience real animals. Pretty pictures don’t do justice to anything and are images people can’t relate to. An image in their mind of a beautiful and powerful tiger is something they can understand.
Zoos have a place. Especially for injured animals that would otherwise be destroyed because they couldn’t survive in the wild.
Any tiger traveling at 35mpg is making good economy of it’s natural fuels. I wonder if a Humvee can climb a 12 ft wall still making 35 mpg.
tkjtkj: I know is was a typo. We all so ut. Just could not resist thinking about it. What are the fuel efficiencies of a snail, rabbit, tiger, man on a bicycle and a Humvee?
James- did your parents have any kids that lived? It isn’t just “Americans” who put down animals that have killed humans. Once an animal has killed a human they will not hesitate to do it again. Plus the tiger was still on the loose in the zoo with people around. Did you think that would ask an enraged animal that is 350 pounds with deadly claws and teeth to “please return to you cage now”? And take an animal raised in captivity “back to the wild”? You may as well shoot it now – it has a better chance. Those tigers could never survive in the wild again. It sound like you are not an American and I thank God – I would never want to run into a moron like you around where I live.
“I’d like to see you run full-speed and convert well over half of that velocity from horizontal to a 55 degree incline. I doubt you could do run that speed up a hill at all, let alone convert that speed instantaneously, without a ramp.”
Joe, Tatiana was a fucking tiger, a cat. Evolved to pounce, jump, leap, and climb.
Comparing human abilities to hers is stupid.
They didn’t just shoot the tiger later because it had killed somebody. They shot it as it loomed over one of its mauled victims.
Is it really possible to do actual math with imperial metrics? I didn’t know that. How exactly does pounds relate to feet and hours? This is by far the most exciting part of this article.
Interesting perspectives.
Whilst it is true that here in the west we do have a preset nature to kill an animal as soon as it has killed a human (for reasons mentioned previously) is it necessarily “right” to do so.
We bring them to the zoo “for their protection”. When “we” make a mistake, “another we” kill them for it. Mistakes being, badly designed enclosure, badly behaved people… both.
It seems that other societies might at least tranquilize the animal first and at least give it a fair trial. It is up to us to treat an animal with respect should we deem it necessary to permanently incarcerate it “for it’s own protection”.
Now I do certainly not have sufficient to judge the nature of the beast, nor the nature of the other beast (the zoology staff) so I will continue read with interest the posts on this forum and to sit in my ivory tower humming and harring. It must be very difficult indeed to be put on the spot (with a 350lb tiger running around a zoo full of people) and actually make a decision. I guess that is why they are the professionals.
Remember that tranquilizers in the real world are not instantaneous and not magical ways to capture things. The time they need to take effect would have been enough for Tatiana to chase down and kill the person who shot her and anyone around that person. Also, figuring out a proper dose for a tranquilizer is not easy as you have to factor in the species, age, and weight into the size of the beast.
I love people from other continents commenting on how Americans behave, particularly those from Europe who brought us the last two world wars. They really own the moral high ground.
Pathetic and another reason Americans laugh at their suggestions.
Honestly, why the hell would you only have a 12.5 foot fence holding in a tiger? My Labrador can skirt an 8 foot fence, and a fat-ass house cat can jump 4 feet without even thinking.
Whoever signed off on the plans for that tiger cage should be hauled off to prison for murder, and while they are there they should relearn physics 101.
Did you check what height and distance they should really use? I think they only raised the barrier by a few feet.
“Pathetic and another reason Americans laugh at their suggestions.”
Yeah, the Vietnam war was a real winner!
Doug … people in glass houses shouldn’t!
Although the subject is tigers, you left yourself wide open with the world wars quip. As an American living in Europe I can tell you that the Europeans have definitely learned their lesson from the 2 world wars in the last century. Since WW2, America has been embroiled in one senseless, bloody and costly conflict after another … without learning that war is effin stupid and ineffective.
Maybe that’s why Europeans laugh at Americans?
Get information. Think. Who is responsible for the tiger escaping her enclosure? The tiger? The taunter? The zoo? If you don’t think the zoo is responsible ask yourself, why did the zoo not immediately put another tiger in the same enclosure?
If you were an armed policeman responding to a tiger attack what would you do to a tiger actively attacking a human in an unsecured area at night? Nothing? Tranquilize her? Kill her?
Serves the douche of a tourist right. You mess with nature, nature may just mess back.
Agree with Daniel about the tranqs. In an emergency situation, ie, tiger on the loose in a crowded zoo, Are you gonna take the time to calculate dosage for a tranq that MIGHT put it down fast enough? (I think aderenaline is a factor too, blood lust if you will, which is unpredictable) Or are you gonna use shogun slugs that WILL put it down easily and effectively. The mauled victims are a tegedy of course. Call me heartless but I really don’t have much simpathy for the guy. It could have been avoided with a proper barrier, but also by not taunting the beast.
Neat physics. Still a little weird how everyone instantly goes back and forth on the value of human life. My fiancée has been involved with the research programs that go on at zoos, which tends to be the most beneficial part of having zoos. While customers pay admission the proceeds go towards both maintaining the animal population, and also into research to help prevent the destruction of species. I know the Cincinnati Zoo in Ohio has one of the most abundant and world renowned genetics programs that’s goal is to help setup a cache of resources to help replenish dying species, or at least create a cache for future conservation.
Dan, you are a douche for wishing the tiger had killed the other two. And as many have said, killing the tiger was absolutely the right thing to do. Even if it had been possible to contain it without killing it, it’s still 100% justified. Human lives are always a priority over animals. Anyone who thinks otherwise should consider returning their membership to the human race.
““Pathetic and another reason Americans laugh at their suggestions.””
“Yeah, the Vietnam war was a real winner!”
I’m not sure the Americans deserve all the credit for losing that ‘war’. France lost more soldiers before pulling out and was fighting long before the US entered the picture.
Hm, I wonder…
If three casualties among hapless zoo visitors is OK, how many would have been too many? Is there a limit? So, keeping a tiger in captivity, gives it a moral right to kill, say, 100000 humans?
Does a pitbull terrier running away from its owner have a moral right to sink its teeth into a toddler? Maybe not, but perhaps three?…
I doubt the motive was revenge, since I seriously doubt that is a concept known to the average tiger.
Yes, it is possible to carry out calculations using imperial units such as poundals, slugs, and BTUs, but it is rather stupid to insist on doing it.
Human lives are inherently worth less than those of any other large animal on the planet, by virtue of numbers. There are 6 billion of us, and not nearly that many of anything else. The solution is to cut back in reproduction, but until that happens on a large scale, the large number of humans is the biggest problem we know of in the universe.
Europeans laugh at American’s for the same reason American’s do the same – stupid, nationalistic, high school bravado.
Seriously, get over it already.
As for killing the Tiger – shooting it was the only option. It was in the process of continuing to maul it’s third victim – the cops would’ve shot a human advancing on another human they had already injured while brandishing a knife, no?
No matter what these boys were or were not doing, death was not the deserved consequence. (Aren’t Europeans generally against the death penalty?)
@njharman:
My point, if you bothered to comprehend it, was merely to emphasize the disconnect between running ability and jumping ability. I admit comparing cats to humans isn’t the best way to do this, but the point remains, regardless of whether you try to understand. Lets put it this way: cheetahs (another cat this time!) can run 65 mph, which would allow them to jump 142 feet if they were able to convert speed energy to vertical speed. Clearly this doesn’t happen. The paper then says, that because the tiger only needed 2/3 of its top speed, that it can do this easily. Well, 2/3 of the cheetah’s top speed would allow it to jump 47 feet up. Again, we don’t ever see that happen. I know there’s a difference between 55 degrees and 90 degrees, as well as the difference between a tiger and a cheetah. And we all know that the tiger did indeed make the jump. But what I’m saying is that the paper doesn’t even mention the problems introduced by the assumptions made. Hardly scientific.
They shot the (Siberian) tiger because it may have been a commie (better safe than sorry). Europeans would have negotiated a natural gas deal with it.
Quote: humans are a little small minded
Oh, well you aliens are soooo much better.
So this whole deal between the Europeans and the Americans is ridiculous. And forgive me for disagreeing with the person who said war is ineffective. Let me just list off a few things it ended for us… tyrrany, despotism, nazis… I could probably go on for days. Don’t even bother saying “Iraq”, because that has nothing to do with what I just said. Read your history. You’ve all got sawdust in your eyes, so quick pointing out specks in everyone else’s.
As far as the tiger’s concerned… kudos to the person who suggested returning your membership. If you don’t even value your own kind, you don’t deserve to be one. Any animal will chose its own over the survival of another animal, when it comes down to it. It’s called self-preservation.
I do not know if it is right to kill an animal after it attacks.
People who work with animals might know. I don’t work with animals, so I don’t know.
See how easy that is?
Lack of experience SHOULD BUT DOES NOT always equate to lack of comments.
Web 2.0 is flawed by design.
imperial math
Yeah we do it all the time in physics classes (we also used metric too) foot-pounds aren’t as cute as newtons but they work the same. Although it is nice to just move a decimal point around instead of having really big numbers or using something really weird like mile/tons. It’s the best way to teach dimensional analysis since the metric system is just way to easy.
>>By Bob on Feb 1, 2008
>>“Pathetic and another reason Americans laugh >>at their suggestions.”
>>Yeah, the Vietnam war was a real winner!
You’re a dork and revisionist. Read your history and learn how we didn’t even enter the ‘Vietnam Conflict’ until France had their tails handed to them by the Viet-Cong!
Sure we could have done better, but, politics, Cest la vie!
As for the two idiots who survived the attack, I hope they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for tormenting that animal!
In the end, I guess the cool thing was, that Tatianna was able to demonstrate her natural, instinctual, abilities to hunt and make a kill before she died.
Tiger hunting of dirtbags should be a reality show on Fox!
How in the world did an interesting article about physics somehow breakdown into yet another comment festival bashing America? People are going to start to think you Europeans have a hard-on for us since nothing on the web can be discussed without you sissies crying like little b|tches about how evil we are and how picked on you guys are. So, if that’s how it’s going to be…
Coming from a bunch of counties that raped and pillaged the whole planet for a couple thousand years, we take it with a grain of salt. In the few hundred year of our great existence we’ve done nothing but save y’alls sorry asses time and time again. The planet is a better place because of us, and you all know it, that’s why you can’t shut up about it for five f*cking minutes.
Like to fly in a plane? You’re welcome. Like the Internet you’re on right now? You’re welcome. Like not speaking German and not being surrounded by blond-haired blue-eyed Nazis? Again, you’re welcome.
Hey Bob, by the way, we didn’t start the Vietnam war, the French did. Just like the two world wars we didn’t start, but we had to help end. Yet another European country we were trying to bail out of hot water. Thanks.
We’re getting really sick and tired of cleaning up your backyards every time you idiots f*ck it up. Sixty million deaths in WWII alone just because you asshole freaks allow evil to thrive and flourish right under your nose. Keep up the good work douches.
And as for an animal being shot to protect humans… screw ’em, they’re here for our food and entertainment. You really think for a minute that humans should die to ensure a mad animal on a killing spree be saved, regardless of who “started it”? I’m just guessing you wouldn’t be saying that if it was your child or mother under that animal about to die.
Do you think nature is nice and friendly and peaceful? There’s nothing peaceful and beautiful about the brutality of nature. You’ve been watching the Nature channel way too much. Nature makes Hitler look like Gandhi. Drop yourself into a jungle and see how “peaceful” and at one with nature you’ll become. You’d soon be dead. It’s a fairy tale you freaks like for us to believe. The divinity of the animals. Bullsh|t!!!!
But don’t worry America, the Euros will change their tune soon enough, when they need us to win another one of their wars for them… AGAIN. Losers!
As for the people wondering if a “cat” that big can change 35mph in a horizontal plane to an incline of 55 degrees, I think the answer is quite obvious since it happened. Never under estimate what big cats can and can not do. If you know a cat can clear a 12.5 wall thats 33 feet away, increase everything by 25 to 50% in size and you should be OK. OH, and since you don’t know for sure, never taunt wild or captive animals. I say darwinism has helped weed out our herd a little.
Amazing ignorance. The tiger was in the process of attacking other people, and the only ones with any means present to stop it were the police. You know, us savage Americans ARM our police, so thankfully no further harm to the highest life form on the planet took place.
Of course it is RIGHT to kill an ANIMAL after it attacks. It is also ok to kill a human after it attacks.
What the hell is wrong with you people?
If the diagram of the tiger enclosure recent published on SFGate.com is correct (see below) and the arXiv article’s calculation is correct, then the new, 19-foot high wall is still inadequate.
According to the SFGate diagram, the distance from the edge of the grotto to the top of the “new” safety wall is 33 feet over and 9 feet up.
As discussed above, the tiger can theoretically jump 33 feet over and 12.5 feet up–clearing the “new” safety wall by an easy 3.5 feet vertical.
That might be theoretical, but you still won’t find me standing there . . .
Diagram: http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/01/03/mn_grotto.jpg
By the way, the SFGate diagram of the tiger’s enclosure also gives a more realistic explanation of how the tiger escaped.
33 feet across and 12.5 feet up is presumably near the upper boundary of the tiger’s capabilities.
But 33 feet across and ***2.5 feet up*** is comfortably within them.
Diagram: http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/01/03/mn_grotto.jpg
This is an extremely silly “analysis”.
Being able to run -forward- at 30 mph is not the same as being able to jump -upwards- at the same velocity, if it was, humans would be able to jump rather higher than we are.
A human sprinter can do over 10m/s.
If you do 10m/s vertically, it’ll take a second for you to stop, during which you’ll have moved aproximately 5 meters upwards.
So, by this logic, a human jumper can clear a 5 meter fence, actually a -6- meter fence since our centre of gravity is at around 1 meter when we stand still.
Which COMPLETELY fails to match reality, infact it’s more than double what a human jumper can really perform.
Humans Suck, we are a blight, killing two more of us wouldnt have mattered in the long run.